(yea found my password!)

Didn't see a topic about this yet so here are a few quick corrections for the front page article:

Correct spelling for Sudoku author is Al Bailey, just want to make sure he gets the right credit!

And the Garage Cart was not made in the early years of repros, Leon has been building them since ~1998.  The original part was the homebrew games not the cart construction itself.  If more people expressed interest I am sure more would have been made but it just wasn't in demand then.

Flame on!  :)

I'm really on the fence on this one. On the one side, I see your point and agree with it; on the other, I do like the LE Glider, which uses something no other NES game has had. As for Bunnyboy making profit on the ebay Gliders, well, this's what he does for a living and he's got to eat too. I'm starting to take note that the only people who seem to get upset over the whole notion of turning a profit are the "old schoolers". I'm not sure where in the cycle of NES collecting the idea of making a profit for hard work being a bad thing occurred, but I personally disagree with it.

Just my .02 -- not trying to step on toes either.

-Dain

I love all things homebrew!  It is my new favorite niche of collecting I think.
~~NGD

It's cool and keeps the scene alive, although i am more interested in proto's and such so it's not really something for me. I like the idea though.

I love homebrew!

But ....

golden airball
:-? for big cash$$  i mean its nothing more then old zelda carts with airball stickers on them.
I mean come on people, for people how helped out ok,but for $$$ on ebay thats just stupid

tower of radia
With number and with out :-?
I understand that langenfeld didn't want to dissapoint people and made some without number but WTF..
Now the carts without number are more rare

ON THE OTHER SIDE

Sivak did it better ,made geminim with number on cart and rom!
And then did a general release.
Thats way better, i think that the unnumbered cart even had a different color?


But the best way to do it is sudoku from al

a couple of gold (for people how helped)

100 grey copies with number

and a general release on retrousb. (blue)

i heard that there are a little changes between general release and the numbered copies.
The great box in combination with the colors of the cart makes this ok in my point of view!

But its just how you look at it i think.




           HOMEBREW

It keeps the nintendo nes and its scene alive and i think it will become a new part of collecting for the nes in the future!

GOLDEN HOMEBREW RULE!!!

I doesn't mather what you think about homebrew and the special carts but i would like to ask people how bring out special(homebrew) carts in the fututre
To obey the golden hombrew rule

PLEASE PUT 1 SPECIAL CART ON EBAY FOR CHARITY!

amen

There is another aspect of this I don't think you guys are really thinking of.  It costs a LOT of money to make a new CIB game.  I am working on one myself right now and I will have well over $4000 in the production costs.  Selling 1-2 of the special edition ones helps recoup some of the cost, and gives people who don't want to help out on the project a chance to get one.  IMO most of the people who are complaining about these are people who would never put up all the money to produce the new games to start with.  It is a huge risk and investment to make stuff like this happen but that fact tends to get over looked.  It hasn't been easy for me to come up with 4k to produce a new game for the community....and I will probably be lucky if I break even on it after all is said and done.
~~NGD

you know i'm a fan of homebrews all the way.  i think it is a great thing for the community, but as far as the rant goes I am still with Martin on this.  

i understand the costs and all that jazz, and yes I say recoup your money, but lets do so in a different way.

if people can make something that is TRULY unique to the limited run then I'd say DO THAT.  If you can't, then don't make it limited in any way.

I'd say this should be figured out before the next big rush of "limited" titles pop up, but if not, whatever, i'm not going to loose sleep over it.
Josh

qixmaster wrote on 14. May 2008 at 17:48:

if people can make something that is TRULY unique to the limited run then I'd say DO THAT.  If you can't, then don't make it limited in any way.

Do you have any suggestions for the type of things that would be truly unique?  Many people think a number or cart color change isn't enough, and for my own releases I completely agree its not enough.  But what about adding a custom box, special insert, or other physical item?  None of that is truly unique, if one can be made then many can be made.  It's just a trade off between the time and cost.

Maybe it's just my growing up in the United States and being an ardent capitalist, but I don't see any legitimate complaint about limited edition carts.  I'm not really interested in them, so I don't buy them.  However, if someone else wants to spend $250 for someone's homebrew cart, what does my opinion on the transaction matter?

Now, if the limited editions are being sold for ridiculous prices under the promise that there will not be a general release, then there is a bit more of a problem because suddenly the product is no longer as described at the time of sale.

No, we don't "need" limited edition homebrew carts, but keep in mind we're talking about video game collecting here.  Most of the hobby is pretty frivolous.

(NOTE:  Please don't flame me for saying NES collection is frivolous.  I am pretty heavily invested in it myself, and have been collecting for about 11 years.)

limewater wrote on 15. May 2008 at 16:02:

Now, if the limited editions are being sold for ridiculous prices under the promise that there will not be a general release, then there is a bit more of a problem because suddenly the product is no longer as described at the time of sale.

The Radia repros weren't sold at ridiculous prices, but it was assumed that there would be only 50.  I think Martin's rant really triggered when suddenly there were 51 numbered and more unnumbered being made.  That would be like me now making a few more special edition Gliders, just a bad idea.

I have more new games coming so I am still looking for ideas on how to make the special versions special! (besides packing the cart full of dollar bills)

I think that limited edition homebrews are a great idea.  Those who don't like them, don't have to buy them.  However, when it comes to collecting for the NES, such carts will be highly desirable due to their rarity.  Limited edition homebrews help developers fund new works, which help keep NES collecting alive.

I think my rant went off the track somewhere... I'm not talking about the very special super duper limited for dev and helpers only carts.

I'm talking about limited editions like Sivak's games which aren't sold with huge profit. I don't understand why we have to bother with a limited release of a game that will end up with an unlimited release al though being colored differently..

And yes then there's of course the Radia story which shows just how stupid limited runs actually are.

Jagasian wrote on 19. May 2008 at 01:15:

I think that limited edition homebrews are a great idea.  Those who don't like them, don't have to buy them.  However, when it comes to collecting for the NES, such carts will be highly desirable due to their rarity.  Limited edition homebrews help developers fund new works, which help keep NES collecting alive.

Their rarity !?

come on ,i still dont understand why people would pay insane amounts of cash for homebrews put in old zelda carts :-?

and there rarity is artificial and not real in my point of view!

From my understanding, I thought "limited" and "special" editions were usually released AFTER an initial release, to help sell more copies of an item that was no longer selling.  For example, when the Star Wars Trilogy lost its selling power, Lucas came out with a special edition.  When Link to the Past stopped selling well, Nintendo came out with a Million-Seller edition.

BTW, I don't consider the original "gold" releases of Zelda to be special editions as compared to the grey ones.  I think Nintendo would have kept selling gold carts forever if they could have turned a profit on it.  Grey was just a cost-cutting decision, probably.

That said, if someone wants to make a special edition of a limited-release game, by all means go ahead.  But since the original game was (comparitively) limited release anyway, I don't really see the point in buying a special edition of it.

I appreciate what homebrewers are doing.  But if you think that by buying a "special edition" of a limited-release homebrew cartridge is an investment in your future, I have some bad news...

In 20 years they won't be any more collectible than they are today.  Buy it for the replay value and nostalgia.

I'm not sure how I'd do it, if I do another game.
The 3 types covered are:
1) Promotional items (ie: Sudoku Gold)
2) Limited Items (ie: Sudoku grey)
3) General Release (ie: Sudoku Blue)

I have my own outlook on this, and I certainly dont want to impose them on anyone else, or judge anyone who thinks differently than me.  

1) Promotional items should not be sold, otherwise its a money grab.
2) Limited items should be readily available. Otherwise you are creating an artificial rarity.
3) General Release items should have an end date.  Cheetahmen, the aladdins, Sunday Funday were all easy to obtain at one time, and it wasnt until after they stopped that people realized that they wanted one.

One last note: Anytime there is an auction for a new rare item, feelings seem to get hurt within the collecting community.   I dont get excited by logging onto ebay and seeing a game I dont have, I get exciting going to a flea market, yard sale, or convention and seeing it.

Al

albailey wrote on 21. May 2008 at 20:13:

1) Promotional items should not be sold, otherwise its a money grab. Al

Do you have ideas how to do a non website specific promotion thats not on eBay?  An auction keeps people checking back, especially when it ends, and can be advertised anywhere.  Just giving some carts away doesn't keep people interested much.  Of course the money is a bonus, my Friday Ferrari needs new tires  ;)

Still hoping to hear some new ideas to make special edition carts more special too...

bunnyboy wrote on 22. May 2008 at 21:39:

Still hoping to hear some new ideas to make special edition carts more special too...

In addition to cosmetic (cart color) and certificate (serial numbered) differences, I think that special edition carts should include a gameplay addon, such as a secret item, level, character, etc.  For example, if the game was a Pokemon game, if a really cool Pokemon was only available in special edition carts, that would be a cool enough addition to make the special edition a must have for collectors, while if the special edition only had cosmetic and certificate differences... it wouldn't be worth it.

A variation on that idea would be to do what DVDs do with their extras, e.g., include a menu option in the game for playing "outtakes" such as levels that were removed from the game's final release.

I guess my point is that since these are games, the differences should be related to the game, not just its packaging.

Everyone knows my opinion on this, it's generally the same as Martin's.  I think it's a cool idea to make theselimited edition carts, BUT, only for those who perhaps helped with the creation of the game.  We all know what's going to happen if you throw crap like this on eBay, you're going to get a lot of money for it.  I've heard all the crap too about how this is a way to get cost back.  It really doesn't cost THAT much to make a few games.  When we over at the SMS site I help with put together a series of three, limited edition games with real inserts, manuals and such they were 1. only sold to well-known collectors who would never sell them. 2. NEVER put on eBay 3. sold at COST ONLY.  Which was only about $70 per game.  I don't know where this thousands of dollars crap comes from.  Even if it were that much, I'm sorry, but this is a hobby, you kind of should be doing it just for fun, not for cash.  When I see people joking about how they're going to get new tires for their car, kind of puts a bad vibe out there that maybe this isn't your 'bread and butter' as you've said.  I wouldn't doubt you just do this to make a ton of extra cash because you know it will.  The guy who put together Hook and such (that I mentioned above), paid a lot of money and then got back just the cost of doing it.  That's how it should be, because we are primarily a collecting community, not a business.  I really don't like the idea of that, and it's one of the things that's totally turning me off to nintendoage.  When it first started, that stuff was going on around here, and now it seems that it's dying down here and swarming over there, turning World into the place it used to be, a group of collectors who are interested in preserving the history, sharing ideas and what not, not making money.

i agree stan

I know lots of old collectors do, so thanks.  I must say though, it makes me a bit happy.  I got sick of coming here because of the bullshit, but all that bullshit (from what I've seen dropping in now and then to check the status of this forum) has now moved over to nintendoage.

The game I am working on releasing is seriously costing 4,000 to produce CIB.  That is just to have the first 100 carts made, and all the boxes/manuals/inserts/etc.  If I made all 250 at once then it would cost 7k to make them all.  That isn't making profit or ripping the community off, it is taking a huge risk on something that could potentially flop.  I want to see some of the naysers put their hard earned money up to do a project like this on their own....
~~NGD

From what's been said some people use this as their 'bread and butter,' and if that's the case you can only do so if you make a fairly substantial profit, considering rising costs of living right now in a variety of areas.  Yeah, if that's the cost it takes you to make games, it's still not that much, that's $40 bucks a game.  Make it $50 for each and you make out $1000.  Sounds fair to me.  As I said, it's only an opinion, but in MY opinion you should expect to take a cut on this for the benefit of the community because that's how it should be.  It doesn't have to be that way if you want to be a bitch and play the market, but it's best you don't, otherwise it keeps bad blood about this stuff flowing.  I mean, heck, people like you have paid hundreds for variations and such, so shouldn't you kind of expect to pay equal amounts for the community's benefit instead of yourself?

The problem with you logic is that you won't sell all the copies.  Not a single NES homebrew has sold even close to that many.  NWC has sold the most by far and I think it is at like 150 or something.  So then you are stuck with the extra product and now way to move it.  That is were selling a few special edition come in so you can at least break even on it all and recoup part of your cash.  I am doing this for the good of the community, but if I lose money why would I or anyone else want to do it ever again.  We would have like 2-3 homebrews and no one would ever release anymore cause we lost money.  Now if you want to invest several thousand dollars of your own money, and are willing to take a big hit on that investment then release your own game.  Making a cart only game is pretty easy and cheap, making it CIB is not easy task and takes HOURS of time invested to get everything lined up and just right.

I have indeed paid hundreds for variants and lots of stuff, but why should I or anyone take a lose to do the community a favor.  The community should (and most of it is minus a few people) are lining up to get these cause they appreciate the hardwork involved.  I have put as much or more wrench time into the NES community as anyone around over the years, so I don't feel I should have to loss my hard earned cash to bring something to the community, that just doesn't make any sense anyway you look at it.  That is like going to buy yourself dinner and then someone else eats it right in front of you.  I will probably be lucky if I break even on Ditka after everything is said or done, and that is why threads like this get on my nerves cause everyone wants to talk all these great morals but no one wants to do anything about it.
~~NGD

Just a view comments

- I dont think that any homebrew games flopped  BAD until now and the risk of  losing money is a very small 1(cib is a risk you take for your self,a cart is fine :))

- and so what if you make 250 games and sell only 150 just tell on the site that there sold out !!! and release some of the numbers very slowly on ebay over the years you will even make more money that way :D

I always hear that its hard work and that special editions come in to break even.

Lets take airball as an exsample

This game was talked about on forums and sold very well.
So why the extra golden airballs?

To break even? i dont think so :-? the game sold good and it was a unreleased game that was dumped and a little added.

So i dont think that takes hours and hours of work.(like a real homebrew)
Ok they where cib and a little more $$$ to make but the creator took this risk

The golden airballs where in my point of view the worst case of money grap >:( $200+ for a zelda cart recycled airball  ;D what where these buyers thinkig :-?

people talked about this and the comment you hear is: i cant control ebay biddings :-? ever heard of a BIN







There is 1 question i have tho?

Why where homebrew sellers never 100% open about there $$$$$$

I mean if i made and sold homebrew and i read these topics and i broke even i would >:( BE VERY PISSED

Grab all my bills and make a complete list like this

_money spend on carts
_ money payed for making manuals and boxes
_hours spend on it working(i would not mention this because its my hobby(making nes games) and not my work)
bla bla bla you get the point

and a list of income
-games sold (normal)
-games sold special edition (gold)

count these and show everybody what i earned or lost
This would have been my natural reaction and it would have been great from 2 points of view

1 it showed people that i didnt rip them off and stopped the negative talk on homebrews

2 it would help fellow members that are planning to make homebrew

but this never happend,sure there was talk about money payed for making the games but never a complete view and this makes me very suspicious :P

Don't make 100 games then.  Figure out who deserves them the most, or bank on having to sell them over an extended period.  I'm sure that over time you'd easily sell 100 copies of an unreleased game.  It's a bit different if the homebrew thing as well, because thus far most homebrews have been pretty retarded.  I mean, no offense there, I know myself coding takes a lot of time, but I don't think too many people are that interested in purchasing Sudoku on the NES.  If you lose money, that's the breaks unfortunately.  But again, why 100?  Whenever we did this for the SMS the number was incredibly limited, I think we only made like 20 total.  Are you bound to 100?  I'm pretty sure you're not unless there's something I'm missing here.  Heck, just make 5 and sell it to people who work on nintendoage like Dain, bunny and a few others.  Your argument makes no sense, what are you talking about?  I said charge $50 per game and you STILL end up with a decent profit.  If you're afraid you won't, don't make so damn many.  You are for one reason, to make a business out of this, otherwise the prices wouldn't be so high.  And I AM doing something about it.  1. I'm letting more people know why this isn't a good idea, and 2. More importantly I'm learning coding so I can make games of my own, which I'm NOT going to charge a lot of money for.  That takes time though, and anyone who really wants to learn it usually gives up because there isn't a really, really good tutorial out there.  A little over cost so I can buy more supplies and a little for myself?  Nope, just what I'll need to make new games and any supplies I need to purchase, I'm not going to rip people off and make $500 on a gold casing I ripped off a Zelda and threw my game in.  That's retarded, and this is the same issue we essentially were seeing when reproductions were first released, morons putting them up on eBay because they knew people would be stupid.  I'm sorry, there's just no way to justify it, take the cut, that's how it should be.  This is NOT your livelihood, just a hobby, and like any other hobby you have to pay for it.  This is kind of lame, but I have tons of D & D stuff that I've paid hundreds for over the past 15 years.  What, should I charge people to sit down and play with me because I purchased the books and such and put HOURS into writing game material, setting up maps and so forth?  No, because it's lame, I put the time into it and the money because I WANT TO DO IT.  If I have to lose a bit in the process, that's just how it is.  This isn't a business my friends, and you're turning it into one, that's the issue.

Quote:

Just a view comments - and so what if you make 250 games and sell only 150 just tell on the site that there sold out !!! and release some of the numbers very slowly on ebay over the years you will even make more money that way :D

Isn't releasing on eBay to make more money exactly what many people are against?  All your talk about greed and now you are suggesting something like that?  If it really was about making the most money possible, I would never sell anything for a fixed price on the website.  It would all be very small batches on ebay with a high starting price.  Once those stop selling, drop the price slightly.  That will always get the maximum everyone is willing to pay.



Quote:

Lets take airball as an exsample This game was talked about on forums and sold very well. So why the extra golden airballs? To break even? i dont think so :-? the game sold good and it was a unreleased game that was dumped and a little added.

And if you were willing to take a multi thousand dollar loss for the community, you could have bought one of the Airball protos and released the rom for free.  For some reason nobody had done that in the many years it was known about...



Quote:

The golden airballs where in my point of view the worst case of money grap >:( $200+ for a zelda cart recycled airball  ;D what where these buyers thinkig :-? people talked about this and the comment you hear is: i cant control ebay biddings :-? ever heard of a BIN

Exactly ONE cart was sold for that much, 4 others were given away for free.  Adding a BIN is another thing more people are against, it doesn't give everyone a "fair" chance to get the special carts.  It just goes to the few people who happen to be loading the website at the correct time.  Those people could easily be the ones that will just resell to make profit themselves.  It is not possible to figure out who "deserves" them more.  A mix of free, contest, and eBay seems to be the best option.

Quote:

There is 1 question i have tho? Why where homebrew sellers never 100% open about there $$$$$$

Have you not been reading these threads?  This has happened MANY times.  There is absolutely nothing secret about any of it.  I really doubt it will stop you or anyone saying it is a rip off, but here are the exact numbers for Airball.  All prices include shipping/taxes, and do not include storage or the molds/dies.

Fixed 250 costs, stuff that has an absolute minimum order, cost per cart:
$4.932 die cut box (closer to $4 for releases now)
$9.80 assembled PCBs (varies by game)
$0.73 label
$1.20 artwork for boxes/labels/manual

So thats $4165.50 to get the parts that must be all made at once.  This is where the "thousands" comes from.  Boxes are the main part, and probably why they have never been done before me.  Everything else can be done in lower quantities (for a higher price) but boxes cannot be made in fewer than 250.

In production costs, stuff that has no minimum order, cost per cart:
$1.88 Ciclone
$2.93 cart plastics
$7.00 proto fee
$1.00 manual printing (estimated, I print/cut/staple myself)

Add that up to get $29.47 costs.  I sell for $35.00, so I get $5.53 per cart.  Approximately 180 have been sold.  Income ($6300 for 180 carts) minus bulk costs ($4165.50) minus single costs ($2305.80 for 180 carts) equals my profit so far, -171.30.  Thats correct, I am still negative on Airball.  When the rest sell, which will take approximately 9 more months at the current rate, I will get $470.96 more in profit.  That's about $20 profit per month over the entire time it will be available.  

There were 5 special edition carts produced at a cost of $165.00 (5x $33).  4 of those were given away completely free, I won't include shipping as a cost here.  The last one was sold on eBay for $250.  So the total profit from the specials was $85.  Even adding that to my "profit" so far I have still lost money.  

Do you see why the people that actually put out the money get pissed when people like you claim we are ripping off the community?  You have absolutely no idea what it takes in time and money, but you want to take away from people like me, albailey, NGD, Sivak, Zzap, and any other people who do the work.  I come out with something really original like the glowing Glider carts and you call people stupid for choosing to pay for them.  I brought out a new undumped unreleased proto, made the first CIB release, and people like you can only yell about greed while I make just $300 over a year and a half.   How much has my Stadium Events risen in that time?  I paid ~$800 for it, but if I sold for $1400 now ($600 profit! double Airball!) nobody would complain about how horrible of a person I am.  Everybody reselling carts on eBay makes a profit, why should ONLY the homebrewers lose money?  What is it about producing brand new games that is a "money grab", while selling old games, systems, sleeves, signs, manuals, maps, or making repros for profit isn't?  

If you don't like the eBay ones, don't bid, it doesn't affect the price of anything you will ever buy.  If you think people are being cheated out of their money, do it yourself.  Buy your own plastics molds, buy your own box and label dies, write your own games, buy your own protos, lay out your own PCBs, solder your own carts.  At least Stan is looking at the programming, while all you can do is blabber incoherently and not even bother to read the responses.

----

This is the last one of these threads I will answer, everyone already has their opinion decided and won't consider the other side anyways.  The huge majority is very happy to pay for all this.  They realize it takes money to pay for new things to come out.  If the "old collectors" don't want to see new things, they can simply ignore them.  The small minority doesn't even have suggestions how to make it better, other than lose money.  There was exactly one person suggesting things for a better special edition, and he is already in support of the existing ones.  Thanks Jagasian, I am trying to see if there were any levels rejected from my next game, and will do a personalized level.

The reason I wanted to make so many is cause that is the ONLY way to make a CIB.  250 is the minimum order to get anything printed period, and yes we have looked arounda.  I don't want to be an elitist and just pick 10 people who randomly deserve them, that is extremely unfair to everyone.  Why even bother then if you are just going to to do 10.  It is not about making money, it is about breaking even so you can do this all over again, but it seems like all we here are people complaining about the process.  You can make a cart only for about 22 bucks + shipping, but I promise that you can't do a CIB any cheaper.  You are all about the "good" of the community but then you suggest making a smaller run, how is that better for the community?  Just making 10 of them is JUST LIKE SELLING THE SPECIAL EDITION ONES!!!
~~NGD

Not when you sell it at cost to people you know won't go bitch and eBay it.  That's exactly what we did at SMS, kept it on the downlow, made them amongst a small number of respected collectors and left it at that.  And guess what, no problems, no eBay auctions, no market rip-off shistering.

Well good for those 10 people.

We're getting games out to a COMMUNITY.  Not our 10 best pals.

The reason for making more carts is to be able to sell them for less.
I made Sudoku and I'll be honest and say theres a lot of better games out there.  I'd have a problem paying much more than $20 for a copy of it.  I'm cheap.   I figured other people were cheap too.

So I made a lot of copies so I could make things cheaper per cart.  At around that time I started collecting CIB games, so I wanted to make my game CIB.  Thats the expensive part.

My costs for making 95 Sudoku carts was  $2685 CDN.  My total money taken in was: $2636 CDN.    


I spent about a month attempting to make mods to the game for the un-numbered release.  I know it looks mostly the same except for the puzzles,  but I really really suck at music coding and it took me forever to add in that crappy intro music.   Plus there were some weird programming glitches that Brian helped me with and we eventually got fixed.  

And Brian, thank you for helping introduce my game to a much wider audience.


Al

I'll have to chip in with my two cents again about this matter...

Al, I absolutely loved your idea about the limited release and the RetroZone release wasn't planned when you made the limited release, if I'm not mistaken.

What I have a problem with is making a limited run when you know you'll be releasing an unlimited release afterwards, that's just stupid in my book... I may be offending Sivak here, but his releases comes to mind, as well as the Tower of Radia reproduction of course.

Again, I have nothing against special editions such as the glowing Glider, other than envying those who own one, I think it's a great idea and I hope Brian will continue experimenting with ways to make NES carts stand out. I don't like the ebay part though, but that's a completely different story, but if it's necesseary to break even on a project then go ahead - but I won't be bidding $100-125 for a homebrew.

So everything boiled down...

Don't release a limited edition if you intend to make a normal run afterwards, it's just stupid. I have absolutely nothing against the programmers or RetroZone earning a buck, two or even five off a game release, who wouldn't want a little green stash for their hard work and a good way to fund future projects.

I can't make my view on this any clearer than this I believe....

Martin wrote on 28. May 2008 at 14:46:

Al, I absolutely loved your idea about the limited release and the RetroZone release wasn't planned when you made the limited release, if I'm not mistaken.

That's correct.    

I dont see the need to release my next game in "limited" form because it will be implicitly limited (assuming its CIB).

 What I mean is, the minimum box order is 250.  As Brian has indicated he has not been able to sell 250 of his CIB games, so he would never place another box order.  Therefore those un-numbered released on his site are limited.  

 If a game is sold loose (like Sudoku or Chunkout 2) it has no upper bound.  However I've talked with Brian and we are going to terminate sales of Sudoku (we haved set a hard date yet but its probably whenever sales have dried up for it).  

And as an after-thought.   I would probably be releasing Sudoku again on a multi-cart.  I just havent written any other games so obviously it will be a LONG time from now.

Edit.  One other thing.  I imagine Sivak's motivations were similar to mine in that we admire "Garage Cart" which was sold numbered and in small doses and at cost.   The problem is,  at the time of Garage Cart the demand for carts was "24".  Nowadays its closer to 150. (just guessing on the numbers) so he just picked the wrong number.   it might not have been  greed, hype or anything else.  We're all still learning.  That being said, I dont know the guy.


Al

I should be more specific here.  When I said to 'those 10 people' I mean that if you're going to make a limited run of a game, don't pull the bullshit and put them up on eBay or start bidding wars on a forum, that's not for the community at all.  I mention the SMS thing because it's a slightly different matter.  1. The games were made (two of them) on permission from the owners of the prototypes, who happened to be the programmers.  2. They didn't want us to mass market them, only keep them limited and only to respected collectors, so we honored that.  3. They were sold at cost, that's it.  When I talk about homebrews, which we plan on doing eventually, they will ONLY be put together at cost and any little extra needed to purchase materials, nothing more.  We aren't going to make gold copies by spraypainting them or anything, just normal games.  If there is some reason they need to be limited, then they will only be distributed to people we can trust.  That's what we did with the three releases we made thus far.  But again, when I'm talking about homebrews, I don't think it's right to make these special editions on the claim that you're getting back cost, from what Al said up there, it's quite easy to get back almost all of your cost with a normal run title.  Look at the Atari 2600 homebrew scene, there are so-called special editions, which include box and manual and some additional items here and there, but they don't cost near as much as what you've seen with the NES specials.  And it's because the creators know what will happen and truly do care about the community, not money.  That's my main issue, but Martin raises a good point as well, making these special editions when you have a run of regulars is worthless both to the regular collectors who don't have enough money, and also to whoever is stupid enough to bid on them.  It's only for yourself in these instances.  And Al, seriously, no offense intended at all by what I said, I'm just saying that there's way more of a chance that a game like Airball or an unreleased title is going to sell out.

Stan wrote on 28. May 2008 at 20:51:

That's my main issue, but Martin raises a good point as well, making these special editions when you have a run of regulars is worthless both to the regular collectors who don't have enough money, and also to whoever is stupid enough to bid on them.  It's only for yourself in these instances.  And Al, seriously, no offense intended at all by what I said, I'm just saying that there's way more of a chance that a game like Airball or an unreleased title is going to sell out.

Why does it bother you that two people who are not you wish to exchange goods you do not value for money which is not yours?

Why does it bother you that someone engages in their hobby "only for himself?"

In all seriousness, did anyone on the planet ever, at any time, get into NES collecting for altruistic reasons?  Unless your hobby is feeding orphans or running a water pump in some third-world village, you're probably in it for yourself.

Nobody benefits from my owning or not owning a homebrew NES cart except myself and the guy selling it.  You're part of the community.  Do you care whether or not I own a limited edition of Glider?

limewater said: "Why does it bother you that two people who are not you wish to exchange goods you do not value for money which is not yours?"

Sweet.    I had a professor who said that same thing once...LOL.

Take this from the point of view of a buyer and a collector who has zero interest in how difficult or expensive....or profitable...creating a homebrew is.
 I support the homebrew scene (through higher pricing of LE carts) becuase I like the hobby and wish it to grow.
 My hobby...and business...is games. I sponsor the creation of those games through my purchases.
 I am unlikely to play any of the homebrews I buy....but I am confident that my continued purchases of these carts ( and yes, the higher priced carts) will promote the creation of still more carts.

  I am planting seeds, gentlemen!    Don't be a weed....
 

Wow, thanks professor, here's my answers to your "points."

1. Why do I care?  Here's why.  When people do this, who are primarily new collectors or so-called 'flash-in-the-pan' because they don't stay around long enough (I've been around for a LONG time, the date on my profile here doesn't even hint at how long I've been doing this, I've seen tons of collectors who blew money blow out and screw it up for everyone else later on), they grossly inflate prices on things that don't really deserve it, making it impossible for those who actually care about keeping the community solid to gather items.  See next point.

2. Altruistic?  YES.  Why?  Because, aside from actually playing the games and doing professional reviews for a site I work for, one of my main reasons for doing this and tons of other people (especially older collectors, and this is the main reason they stuck around and don't buy and then sell later when they 'get out of it') is to PRESERVE THE HISTORY OF THE NES.  It may sound silly, but it's just like someone trying to record the history of a dying culture.  There's no real reason for it, but it's a good idea.  So I care about it because all of this money being thrown around makes it more difficult for the people who actually know about hardware, catalog differences in programs and such, get access to these things.  Let's face it, most of the people paying all this money aren't responsible with their funds, they're just doing it for the idea of collecting, and they eventually sell, causing more price inflation and difficulty.  For the NES scene, unfortunately, the bulk of 'collectors' are like this.  Why?  See next point.

3. Go to stores like Hot Topic and you'll see that the history of the NES is big business, it's turning into what happened eventually to Barbie collecting (no I never got into it nor even cared), comic book collecting (though this has changed over the past few years to some extent) and so forth.  It's turning into a hell of losers and idiots who just spend money because it's essentially in fashion to like this stuff.  The bulk of people paying ridiculous prices don't really have the funds to do it, they just don't have enough responsibilities to be more reasonable, so they waste what they gather quickly and then once something serious happens, which seems to be buying a house and kids for the most part (the last 5 or so 'collectors' fell into one of these two categories), they sell everything.  Why did you bother in the first place?  Did you even play them?  Did you use what you had to do anything for the history of the system?  No, you just spent a bunch of money,  inflated prices and pissed everyone off.  See next point.

4. That's one of the things that makes me so angry.  When I started getting into this, playing old NES games WAY back after the Genesis and SNES came out, people thought it was stupid and lame.  People wondered why I was hording NES related items and such.  I did it because I cared about preserving my memories, sure, but I also was interested in the history of the system, programming specs and so forth.  It was a hobby.  Then, suddenly, right around the end of the 90s or so, all of this becomes 'retro' and 'cool' and people who never even grew up with the NES start to 'collect' for it, get one of the numerous guides that eventually sprung up and waste their parents' or their money on it because they have nothing else to do.  The community used to consist of a fairly small group of dedicated enthusiasts who cared about keeping things reasonable as well as informing people about the NES.  Once the internet became daily life, these things changed and it got ridiculous.  Why do you think Ken dissappeared from the scene?  I'm surprised sometimes that Martin is still around after everything he's seen.  I personally go in and out of these NES depression phases where I see things getting a little better and then something stupid, like gold Airball happens to remind me that the bulk of NES collectors now are idiots.  So, perhaps I'm a little old-fashioned about the idea, but I just care about this hobby and it's changed a lot since I started, way before I even had the internet.

5. As for homebrew, what don't you understand?  I SUPPORT IT.  What I don't support is turning it into a business.  You can't possibly make money off this in the form of a business unless you charge larger amounts of money over a long period of time and take advantage of people.  Homebrewing is a hobby, that's it, it's not a business.  There's no law against this, sure, I can't argue that, but I can argue that you're ruining it for people who actually care, and most of them bailed out over time because of crap like this.  There's something about the NES scene too, you really don't see this elsewhere.  The Atari 2600 homebrew scene, for example, is quite vibrant, but whenever you see private programmers selling 'special edition' cartridges, they sell them at just a little over cost to everyone, not in limited numbers really, just with a box.  The newest one, in fact, only costs $80 or so.  That' reasonable considering the time and effort put into it, $350 is not.  Start making these worthless cartridges for the NES, putting them on eBay, and all you're doing is playing the market.  No one can possibly say this is their livelihood, because there's just not enough turn around for it to be a viable possibility unless you start milking people and the idea of it.  So that's what I don't like.  It's just for extra cash to waste on more stuff, and this ruins the idea of what homebrewing is in the first place, a hobby.  You can't artificially create 'rare' items, it's worthless.  But sadly, the people who are buying them don't seem to realize it, but they will years later.  That's taking advantage of them, the community and the very idea behind it.  How does buying them promote anything other than the person who is selling them's car tires?

So that's why I care.

Stan wrote on 29. May 2008 at 16:24:

Blah blah blah blah.

Stan, who cares how long you've been around?  Congrats, you've been in this scene since I was in my mother's womb.  Big deal?  That might make you feel superior to everyone who has come into the scene late, but you aren't.  Some people may value your opinions, because I admit, you write well.  But you are hard-headed.

In every hobby there are people that come into it and leave quickly.  That's just how we as Americans are.  Prices are going to inflate and fluctuate.  That's everything.  Do you go to the gas stations every day and complain that you've been pumping gas since before the clerk was born and the high prices aren't fair?  Things are going to change as time goes on.  That's just how things go.  If you don't like it, jump ship and go curl up next to Sonic the Hedgehog tonight when you go sleep in your twin size bed.

As for "pissing everyone off" I think you're the only person getting offended.  Martin may not like the way things are, but he isn't whining and complaining like you are.  He makes his points and leaves it at that.  You feel the need to come back here and defend every little word you say because you have the "right" opinion.  Give me a crappity smacking break.  People will always see things differently.  You need to learn to accept that.

The homebrew scene has grew considerably lately, and it will continue to get bigger and bigger.  If there is a demand for LE or special edition carts, they will get made.  So what if it's just hyping their game?  They deserve it.  They are creating something for a system that we are all preserving.

If people want to spend their money on it, so be it.  It's their money.

And your argument about people wanting to sell their stuff when it comes time to buy a house or get married is ridiculous.  People don't sit down when they're 21 and say to themselves, "Well, I'd better start saving all my money now.  I could possibly meet a girl in the next five years, and we'll want to get married.  Oh, and then we'll have to put a down-payment down on a house.  Shit, I'd better open a savings account.

I don't know if you have that kind of foresight, but I sure don't.  And I don't know anyone else in existence that is putting off a hobby merely for the fact that they'll need money on some unforeseeable circumstance in the future.

Anyway, I'm done ranting.  Come on back here and play Nintendo Scene Grandfather and start scolding me for having a differing opinion.  And call me an idiot.  You like to do that.  We're all idiots.

I see your point.  That's the problem, and this is the same issue with the current housing market crisis.  People aren't reasonable with their money.  If they were, we wouldn't have problems like this.  You SHOULD forsee costs in the future, because that's living responsibly, and since a bulk of NES 'collectors' are young and don't think about this, it gets stupid.  However, as you pointed out, you don't HAVE to do that, you don't have to do anything, but you should.  That's the difference.  You don't have to put off your hobby, I'm not saying that, what I'm saying is people need to be more resonsible with their money in this hobby so EVERYONE gets a fair share of what it's about.  Spending like this, ruins that, I think you can see that.  I only brought up my time spent in doing this because I'm making a point, things have changed for the negative.  They may get better, but it's only going to get better when people know why it needs to.  What I said above is why.

I could respond to each point about how I have been here a while (only 5 years), I have done things people said was impossible (see NWC, PowerPak, Airball), I do preserve history more than most (see Merchandisers manual, M series data collection, M8 info), I make things that help other people preserve games (see USB CopyNES), help others learn the system (see programming tutorials, PowerPak Lite), make things so people don't destroy games (see new plastics, ReproPak, Ciclone), but you don't actually care about those.  For you its all about the money, which is why its so baffling that you completely destroy your own arguments:


Stan wrote on 29. May 2008 at 16:24:

The Atari 2600 homebrew scene, for example, is quite vibrant

And the carts at AtariAge get more profit than most of my carts.  Atari carts have much less hardware inside, and they are using donor carts for plastics instead of making new ones.  There goes that whole preserving history part.  A $20 Atari cart rips off the community more than a $20 NES cart.


Stan wrote on 29. May 2008 at 16:24:

but whenever you see private programmers selling 'special edition' cartridges, they sell them at just a little over cost to everyone, not in limited numbers really, just with a box.  The newest one, in fact, only costs $80 or so.  That' reasonable considering the time and effort put into it, $350 is not.

You seriously think $80 is "a little over cost"?  $80 is reasonable?  Let's look at what goes into something like Actionauts:

$1 Cart plastics - uses donor carts
$2 PCB - assuming they use brand new ones, otherwise $0 (in donor)
$2 Memory chip - Atari carts have just one memory chip, instead of 2-3 plus lockout for NES carts
$1 Manual
$1 Label
$4 Box
$1 Insert

Total cost is $12.  Sell for $80.  That's a profit of $68 per cart.  560% profit is reasonable?  All the parts for Chunkout 2 costs about $12 for cart only, guess I should be selling that for $80 instead of $22!  Anyone who buys Chunkout 2 for $22 is obviously ripping me off!

The SE Glider carts were about $40 in parts.  The ones that sold on eBay (4x $250) minus the parts cost for those (4x $40) and the ones that were given away (5x $40) means I made $640 off of it.  When 10 Actionauts carts are sold, he makes $680.  Sounds pretty even!  Except that 250 Actionauts carts will be sold, not just 10.  So multiply the $68 per cart by 250 to get the "just a little over cost" profit of $17,000.  Sure sounds like business level money, certainly far more than I have made off anything but PowerPak and controllers.  Maybe the Atari homebrew scene is vibrant because they are willing to pay for homebrews and new products instead of just bitching about greed without first looking into the numbers.

If anyone really cares about "preserving the history", send me the M8 model with Stack Up so I can compare all 3 known versions and try to get an order for them.  Before I was looking into it there wasn't even a list of the games each version had.  I will send you all of the special edition carts for my next game that are not already being given away.  That's 6-8 "valuable" carts that you can sell, give away, run contests, auction, or burn.  If you choose to destroy them in a cool way, I will host the video on my website  :)

I vote to pee on them!

I thought you weren't talking anymore.  Just to clarify something, I actually don't pay attention to what Atariage does, I just occasionally look there and glance at what they do, so I took that at face value to make a point, it seemed like a reasonable price to me and such and I have no idea what money they take from their games or what not.  I have absolutely nothing to do with them.  But to use a similar example, how about the Jaguar games that Songbird makes?  They seem quite reasonable to me, unless there's some secret money hording I don't know about.  Those games, like Total Carnage, cost around $90, depending on the title, looking at the cool booklet, case, game and such you get that sounds reasonable for a homebrew.  My point is that no one should be taking advantage of anyone, and that's how I view what has been happening.  If that's what Atariage does, then obviously I don't agree with it, but I just threw out something superficial I saw to make a point.  Since it's not true, it doesn't mean the point isn't there, it just means I didn't provide something to prove it with.  But you seem to be confusing what I'm saying.  Chunkout sounds REASONABLE and like a good thing for everyone.  Selling gold Airball DOES NOT.  That's what I'm saying.

Stan wrote on 29. May 2008 at 22:43:

Those games, like Total Carnage, cost around $90, depending on the title, looking at the cool booklet, case, game and such you get that sounds reasonable for a homebrew.

Seriously want to do this again?

$15 donor cart from ebay (looks like the hardest part)
$13 4MB flash chip
$2 PCB (assuming its not from donor, otherwise $0)
$5 box
$1 label
$1 manual

$37 total, sell for $90, profit of $53 per cart.  As shown previously I made $85 on gold Airballs.  Carl makes more money from just 2 Total Carnage carts than I did on 5 gold Airballs.  If he sells only 10 carts its more profit than I will ever make on 250 Airballs.  Did you just pick something random again because your previous example completely failed too?  


If Total Carnage is reasonable for a normal release, how many people would complain at $60+ for cart only Chunkout 2 or $90+ for CIB Glider?

But if the bulk of the community wants the special edition carts and enjoys them who are you to tell us we can't/shouldn't have them??  None of the NES homebrew (CIB or lose) have sold for more than 55 bucks, so are you saying you would rather us charge 80 bucks for them each and not sell any special edition?  The special edition carts help eat some of the cost allowing us to sell the BULK of the carts for cheaper to the masses rather than charging them 80+ bucks for them like other consoles homebrewers do.  I think that you just assume the NES scene sucks and try to complain about it rather than trying to help it now.  Your focus is on Sega and not NES now, so you want Sega to be better, at least in your eyes.  

I love the NES scene and I have preserved history as much as almost anyone (minus Martin, TRM, TSR and a handful of others).  So the argument of history doesn't work cause lots of us are preserving history, more so than any other site before hand (ie- see the NA database).  People have called me crazy for what I have spent on stuff, and I promise you I have money saved in the back and probably have more saved for retirement than 95% of people my age.  Just cause someone spends a lot doesn't mean they aren't financially responsible at the same time, they may just have more disposable income to play with.
~~NGD

I'm not even referring to you, and you know that.  You know what happens in this scene because you've seen it.  You're an example of a good collector, as is bunny.  I don't mind when you guys spend because you're actually doing something with it.  And no, I don't focus on Sega now, I've just found the scene there to be what I think such a thing should be.  Interestingly, they've learned how to create a more solid base of security in these issues because of seeing mistakes that happen in the NES scene, and I don't just mean here or even at NA.  I mean in general most SMS collectors are a lot more honest, respectable and realistic.  I'm not sure why, I don't have a reason for it, that's just how it is at the moment.  It doesn't have to be anything, I'm not saying you have to buy this or that, just that you should do it a certain way.  You don't HAVE to, you just should because it makes a solid, honorable community.  That might seem silly to some people, but it's just an extension of how I try to run things I do every day.  But yeah, as I said, for that game up there, whatever they pay for their cost, $90 is reasonable because Jaguar games sold for about that much back in the day, makes sense to me.  I don't see them shelling out spray-painted 'gold' versions for $500 to idiots.  I didn't check what they pay or anything, just glanced real quick and considering how awesome Total Carnage is in the first place, that's a good price.  I'm not sure why you bothered to figure out their cost or where you even found that data, I'm just saying that considering what you get, that's reasonable to me.  They're not making that much considering how many they probably sell.  There are like five people that collect Jaguar in the world.  I don't see why you have to do the whole limited thing, that's my point, it just seems fishy and wrong to a lot of people, not just me, I just seem to be really the only one that keeps going on about it.  I would say $50 for a loose Chunkout is a reasonable offering considering all that goes into it, and why not?  It makes sense to me.  But if you have 80 of those and then make 5 gold ones, which don't mean anything in the first place, it's just wrong.  Plenty of other ways to get 'cost,' like raise the price on the regular release or just say, 'well, this is my hobby and I like it, I don't mind spending the money on it.'  There's really no reason to do any of this other than for that very reason, and if you change that reason and start to make it more of a business, it gets lame.

I know your not referring to me specifically but I was just using me as an example.  You have been away so long you don't know as much as you think you do about the NES community.  There are LOTS of people who do a lot of stuff behind the scenes that you don't realize at all cause you are not around much.  When you make broad generalizations when you don't know all the facts it rubs a lot of people the wrong way.  Sure, lots of people come and go...same with any hobby.  The NES scene is stronger and tighter than it has ever been, we have made tons of new discoveries in the last year alone and are making great progress in cataloging stuff.  

Your logic about raising the price of carts makes no sense to me.  If you want to get the game out for the community, you want to be able to do it for the cheapest price so it gets to the masses (like you say, not everyone can afford to spend a lot on this stuff) but 40-50 is managable to most people.  By selling a few special edition carts that keeps the price down for the vast majority of people (and the masses is the main concern if we are talking a community, right?)  Then some of the bigger fish in the sea can go after the special edition ones "IF" they want to, no one is forcing them or you.  If you don't think they hold any value then ignore them.  But as a whole the special edition carts help recoup costs, AND allow the games to be sold cheaper to the bulk of collectors. It is really a win win for the community.  The special edition carts are also part of a marketing strategy as well, it helps build  hype which in turns sells more games, which in turn leads to more NES homebrews!  You need to think bigger picture my friend.
~~NGD

I'm around, I just don't post as much because I've been focusing on some other things, and I don't mean the SMS site.  This means, I look around, I pay attention, but I say little.  I'm around plenty.

Stan, you mentioned that one of things that's turning you off to NintendoAge was that in comparing the SMS scene to NA, it was primarily a collecting community, not a business. I don't control what other independent people release, so to group that aspect with NA isn't exactly fair.

I find it hard to believe you're around as much as you say you are simply for the fact that you'd be blind to not see how awesome the community is. I'm proud to say I've never been part of a better community, and I don't see how it could get much better. Every community is different, and if you find the SMS scene to be your Utopian scene, then that's cool, and I encourage you to stick with it. But by comparing the NES scene with SMS scene grows tiring, and I don't really think the two can be compared side-by-side. Simply put, the more people you have, the more likely you are to have some chaos and dissension, and no one is going to argue the size of both scenes: NES wins.

As for homebrews and money involved, you make it sound like "back in the old days, we did it like this," but there were no real old days before NA regarding homebrews -- there was a single public release of the Garage Cart (and perhaps SolarFox, but that wasn't really a release per se). That's it, there's no basis for comparison in the NES scene.

And lastly, I'm not even sure why I'm writing this. I know how Stan feels, and I know his opinion on these matters is unlikely to change. I think you're getting so much response, Stan, including mine, because these are the people that care the most.

-Dain

I know, and it's good to see that.  I don't mean to keep comparing, we have plenty of members over there, I'm not sure what it is really, it isn't numbers, there's just something different about it.  I think, personally, it has a big deal to do with the current retro craze the NES has been going through for the past five years or so.  It was around a bit before that, but it's blown up quite a lot.  I've seen 'collectors' who are twelve years old starting to get into this.  Good?  I don't know, it's not like you can count on all of us being around into our 200s, so eventually younger people will take control provided it last long enough.  And the 'back in the old days' thing I'm referring to is just the general attitude and camaraderie that used to exist when it was a small group of people, before the internet even took over.  I remember an old BBS group I used to frequent.  Anyway, again, I think homebrews are awesome, and I know you can do what you want, there's nothing stopping you from gold plating everything and making one copy, I just think it ruins the whole idea behind homebrewing.  Granted, I jumped all over the newer NWC thing, but I did that without really reading anything because I took it to be another Airball debacle, I didn't even know what the money was going to be used for, so my fault on that one.  Just seeing where it is going is what I'm mainly referring to.  If you want to do homebrews, awesome, I'm in the process of learning myself right now.  But I don't think you should be trying to make a ton of money off a hobby or make it seem like you are in some capacity.  I see what the costs are, and I fully understand the time involved, but when I do it, I do indeed expect to pretty much be paying %200 of this out of my own pocket, not from anyone else.  By the way, out of curiosity, because I haven't been looking around for info on this, what is the issue with copyrighting homebrews?  I'd be afraid, looking at what happened with repos awhile back, to have some moron steal my ROM and make their own copies without my consent, but can you get a copyright for something like this?  Just curious, not sure if the law really applies here, even though technically as soon as you make it and have proof (ie computer data showing dates you worked on it), it's copyrighted without any official forms.  But can something like that hold up?  Could you actually get an official copyright on this stuff?  Just curious because I really don't know what people have been doing in homebrewing for any system in this regard.

Stan wrote on 30. May 2008 at 06:34:

By the way, out of curiosity, because I haven't been looking around for info on this, what is the issue with copyrighting homebrews?  I'd be afraid, looking at what happened with repos awhile back, to have some moron steal my ROM and make their own copies without my consent, but can you get a copyright for something like this?  Just curious, not sure if the law really applies here, even though technically as soon as you make it and have proof (ie computer data showing dates you worked on it), it's copyrighted without any official forms.  But can something like that hold up?  Could you actually get an official copyright on this stuff?  Just curious because I really don't know what people have been doing in homebrewing for any system in this regard.

Copyright law does apply to computer software, so once you write it you automatically and instantly own all copyright on it.  You could also do another license like GPL or BSD if you wanted other people to be able to put it on carts but you keep your copyright.  If someone tries to sell carts with your copyrighted homebrew rom there are big penalties even if they are not making money.  If you don't want to register, get it printed, notarized, sealed, mail it to yourself.  As long as you don't open it then the post mark will be a verified date for creation.  

To officially register your copyright just takes a few forms and $45.  Computer software counts as a literary work.  You mail a paper copy of a few pages of the source code (something like first and last 25 pages) to the Library of Congress.  They will archive it and send you a certificate.  They are slow, but your registration is dated when the package reaches them.  Then you get to use that cool R in a circle icon!  You may need the registration to do infringement claims, but that may just apply to statutory (aka massive) damages instead of actual damages.  Registration also protects against importation, like if for some reason a Chinese company wants to make your game and import it to the USA.

For homebrews (not paying someone else to do it for you) the copyright lasts until 70 years after your death in the USA.  If you paid someone to write it for you, the copyright is 95 years after publication or 120 years after author's death, whichever is shorter.  If you paid someone and you die, copyright transfers to original creator.  If you wrote the game as an employee and the company goes out of business but does not sell its assets, the copyright transfers to you.  Internationally varies but is around the same period, 60-90 years after creator's death.  Publication is not a requirement for copyright.  

ALL reproductions (hacks, translations, unreleased games, games only released in Japan, prototypes, NWC) are still copyrighted by someone, so making them is illegal.  Fortunately nobody seems to care yet...

I'm wondering something.   A couple of code snippets I regularly use were written by other authors.
One is the random number generator code published on 6502.org,  and another is the PAL vs NTSC detection provided by blargg in a forum post.
 
 From what I can tell, neither one had any stipulation about preventing me from using them for free and without consent,  but I figured I better double check.  

 And for the record.  Brian's airball was sold in auction, and so was one of my gold sudokus.  Brian's cart helped reduce the cost per cart of the remaining ones .  Mine just went to charity, so I ended up having to charge more for my greys.  I know the ebay thing rubs some people the wrong way, but technically his approach was better for the community.  

And Brian, you asked before about better ideas for marketing.  I dont have any.   Actually I do have one, but I'm not sharing it yet, because its pretty crazy and I want to see if I can do it.

Al

albailey wrote on 30. May 2008 at 18:56:

I'm wondering something.   A couple of code snippets I regularly use were written by other authors. One is the random number generator code published on 6502.org,  and another is the PAL vs NTSC detection provided by blargg in a forum post.    From what I can tell, neither one had any stipulation about preventing me from using them for free and without consent,  but I figured I better double check.   Al

If there's nothing directly stated, then its generally public domain.  When posting to a public forum theres no expectation of copyright.  You can always say your code is a parody of theirs, change the variable names to something funny  :)

On the issue about the cardbox costs:

Won't it be easier to give all the homebrew a video box (like the NA NWC 2008 release). Kinda like the megadrive/genesis games.

+ not as expensive (I think)
+ They last longer in comparison with cardbox games
+ If you print the labels yourself (with a good printer) ==> no minimum order

- can't seem to find any downsides :)

Doing cases would be cheaper...but they also wouldn't look as good.  Plus you have to factor in the cost of the case + the insert that goes in them.  Probably not "that" much cheaper in the long run, just no minimum order.

The stickers is doable but a ton of work.  Getting them die cut is much easier and a TON less leg work cutting them out and stuff.
~~NGD

KennyB wrote on 05. Jun 2008 at 19:14:

On the issue about the cardbox costs: Won't it be easier to give all the homebrew a video box (like the NA NWC 2008 release). Kinda like the megadrive/genesis games. + not as expensive (I think) + They last longer in comparison with cardbox games + If you print the labels yourself (with a good printer) ==> no minimum order - can't seem to find any downsides :)

The downside is there are no new plastic cases that fit NES carts without modification.  The NANWC ones have most of the posts and guides inside cut out so the cart will fit.  That significant time and printing/cutting the insert means they aren't really cheaper than boxes, but they do have no minimum.  Realistically it would add ~$5+ to the selling price of the game, making something like Super NeSnake 2 into a $30+ game.  Adding a box will not get more people to buy, but adding the cost will get fewer people to buy.