bunnyboy wrote on 22. May 2008 at 21:39:


In addition to cosmetic (cart color) and certificate (serial numbered) differences, I think that special edition carts should include a gameplay addon, such as a secret item, level, character, etc.  For example, if the game was a Pokemon game, if a really cool Pokemon was only available in special edition carts, that would be a cool enough addition to make the special edition a must have for collectors, while if the special edition only had cosmetic and certificate differences... it wouldn't be worth it.

A variation on that idea would be to do what DVDs do with their extras, e.g., include a menu option in the game for playing "outtakes" such as levels that were removed from the game's final release.

I guess my point is that since these are games, the differences should be related to the game, not just its packaging.

i agree stan

The game I am working on releasing is seriously costing 4,000 to produce CIB.  That is just to have the first 100 carts made, and all the boxes/manuals/inserts/etc.  If I made all 250 at once then it would cost 7k to make them all.  That isn't making profit or ripping the community off, it is taking a huge risk on something that could potentially flop.  I want to see some of the naysers put their hard earned money up to do a project like this on their own....

The problem with you logic is that you won't sell all the copies.  Not a single NES homebrew has sold even close to that many.  NWC has sold the most by far and I think it is at like 150 or something.  So then you are stuck with the extra product and now way to move it.  That is were selling a few special edition come in so you can at least break even on it all and recoup part of your cash.  I am doing this for the good of the community, but if I lose money why would I or anyone else want to do it ever again.  We would have like 2-3 homebrews and no one would ever release anymore cause we lost money.  Now if you want to invest several thousand dollars of your own money, and are willing to take a big hit on that investment then release your own game.  Making a cart only game is pretty easy and cheap, making it CIB is not easy task and takes HOURS of time invested to get everything lined up and just right.

I have indeed paid hundreds for variants and lots of stuff, but why should I or anyone take a lose to do the community a favor.  The community should (and most of it is minus a few people) are lining up to get these cause they appreciate the hardwork involved.  I have put as much or more wrench time into the NES community as anyone around over the years, so I don't feel I should have to loss my hard earned cash to bring something to the community, that just doesn't make any sense anyway you look at it.  That is like going to buy yourself dinner and then someone else eats it right in front of you.  I will probably be lucky if I break even on Ditka after everything is said or done, and that is why threads like this get on my nerves cause everyone wants to talk all these great morals but no one wants to do anything about it.

Don't make 100 games then.  Figure out who deserves them the most, or bank on having to sell them over an extended period.  I'm sure that over time you'd easily sell 100 copies of an unreleased game.  It's a bit different if the homebrew thing as well, because thus far most homebrews have been pretty retarded.  I mean, no offense there, I know myself coding takes a lot of time, but I don't think too many people are that interested in purchasing Sudoku on the NES.  If you lose money, that's the breaks unfortunately.  But again, why 100?  Whenever we did this for the SMS the number was incredibly limited, I think we only made like 20 total.  Are you bound to 100?  I'm pretty sure you're not unless there's something I'm missing here.  Heck, just make 5 and sell it to people who work on nintendoage like Dain, bunny and a few others.  Your argument makes no sense, what are you talking about?  I said charge $50 per game and you STILL end up with a decent profit.  If you're afraid you won't, don't make so damn many.  You are for one reason, to make a business out of this, otherwise the prices wouldn't be so high.  And I AM doing something about it.  1. I'm letting more people know why this isn't a good idea, and 2. More importantly I'm learning coding so I can make games of my own, which I'm NOT going to charge a lot of money for.  That takes time though, and anyone who really wants to learn it usually gives up because there isn't a really, really good tutorial out there.  A little over cost so I can buy more supplies and a little for myself?  Nope, just what I'll need to make new games and any supplies I need to purchase, I'm not going to rip people off and make $500 on a gold casing I ripped off a Zelda and threw my game in.  That's retarded, and this is the same issue we essentially were seeing when reproductions were first released, morons putting them up on eBay because they knew people would be stupid.  I'm sorry, there's just no way to justify it, take the cut, that's how it should be.  This is NOT your livelihood, just a hobby, and like any other hobby you have to pay for it.  This is kind of lame, but I have tons of D & D stuff that I've paid hundreds for over the past 15 years.  What, should I charge people to sit down and play with me because I purchased the books and such and put HOURS into writing game material, setting up maps and so forth?  No, because it's lame, I put the time into it and the money because I WANT TO DO IT.  If I have to lose a bit in the process, that's just how it is.  This isn't a business my friends, and you're turning it into one, that's the issue.

Quote:


Have you not been reading these threads?  This has happened MANY times.  There is absolutely nothing secret about any of it.  I really doubt it will stop you or anyone saying it is a rip off, but here are the exact numbers for Airball.  All prices include shipping/taxes, and do not include storage or the molds/dies.

Fixed 250 costs, stuff that has an absolute minimum order, cost per cart:
$4.932 die cut box (closer to $4 for releases now)
$9.80 assembled PCBs (varies by game)
$0.73 label
$1.20 artwork for boxes/labels/manual

So thats $4165.50 to get the parts that must be all made at once.  This is where the "thousands" comes from.  Boxes are the main part, and probably why they have never been done before me.  Everything else can be done in lower quantities (for a higher price) but boxes cannot be made in fewer than 250.

In production costs, stuff that has no minimum order, cost per cart:
$1.88 Ciclone
$2.93 cart plastics
$7.00 proto fee
$1.00 manual printing (estimated, I print/cut/staple myself)

Add that up to get $29.47 costs.  I sell for $35.00, so I get $5.53 per cart.  Approximately 180 have been sold.  Income ($6300 for 180 carts) minus bulk costs ($4165.50) minus single costs ($2305.80 for 180 carts) equals my profit so far, -171.30.  Thats correct, I am still negative on Airball.  When the rest sell, which will take approximately 9 more months at the current rate, I will get $470.96 more in profit.  That's about $20 profit per month over the entire time it will be available.  

There were 5 special edition carts produced at a cost of $165.00 (5x $33).  4 of those were given away completely free, I won't include shipping as a cost here.  The last one was sold on eBay for $250.  So the total profit from the specials was $85.  Even adding that to my "profit" so far I have still lost money.  

Do you see why the people that actually put out the money get pissed when people like you claim we are ripping off the community?  You have absolutely no idea what it takes in time and money, but you want to take away from people like me, albailey, NGD, Sivak, Zzap, and any other people who do the work.  I come out with something really original like the glowing Glider carts and you call people stupid for choosing to pay for them.  I brought out a new undumped unreleased proto, made the first CIB release, and people like you can only yell about greed while I make just $300 over a year and a half.   How much has my Stadium Events risen in that time?  I paid ~$800 for it, but if I sold for $1400 now ($600 profit! double Airball!) nobody would complain about how horrible of a person I am.  Everybody reselling carts on eBay makes a profit, why should ONLY the homebrewers lose money?  What is it about producing brand new games that is a "money grab", while selling old games, systems, sleeves, signs, manuals, maps, or making repros for profit isn't?  

If you don't like the eBay ones, don't bid, it doesn't affect the price of anything you will ever buy.  If you think people are being cheated out of their money, do it yourself.  Buy your own plastics molds, buy your own box and label dies, write your own games, buy your own protos, lay out your own PCBs, solder your own carts.  At least Stan is looking at the programming, while all you can do is blabber incoherently and not even bother to read the responses.

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This is the last one of these threads I will answer, everyone already has their opinion decided and won't consider the other side anyways.  The huge majority is very happy to pay for all this.  They realize it takes money to pay for new things to come out.  If the "old collectors" don't want to see new things, they can simply ignore them.  The small minority doesn't even have suggestions how to make it better, other than lose money.  There was exactly one person suggesting things for a better special edition, and he is already in support of the existing ones.  Thanks Jagasian, I am trying to see if there were any levels rejected from my next game, and will do a personalized level.

Not when you sell it at cost to people you know won't go bitch and eBay it.  That's exactly what we did at SMS, kept it on the downlow, made them amongst a small number of respected collectors and left it at that.  And guess what, no problems, no eBay auctions, no market rip-off shistering.